I was amassed during the CG, I was being hit by two which were constantly changing targets and firing from very far away up the hill.

That was me bud. You l33t sniper you.
I saw you, but you managed to wing me once, so I backed off and laid down a barrage from out of LOS.
Funnily enough, as I did so I reflected on how it had taken a lot of getting used to the weapon to be able to place shots from out of LOS.

IIRC, I only clipped you a few times before you managed to withdraw.
And then you probably headshotted me later.

Next time I found you, you were in that tower with your other sniper friend

Will have to watch the BR for that. I left early that night, partly due to PB issues and partly because I got tired, but someone else may have gotten around to forming a PMG team without me .

Now that the PMG has gotten the stamp of approval from Talon, I'll add it to my list of Things to do to **** of BI .

( )

I don't see the point in this argument, neither weapon needs a lot of skill to use, but both weapons require skill to use well, it is that simple.

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Which is still harder than just holding shift, pointing your crosshairs at the target, and pressing fire for an instant one-hit-one-kill.

Dunno.  Move mouse up on one, hold shift on the other, not really THAT much harder.  Also, try using the sniper - it isn't instant.  If the target is moving at all, you have to aim slightly ahead of them.  A Sniper can also only hit one target at a time, meaning if everyone mvoes at the same time, less people will get damaged.

And this doesn't apply to snipers?  Snipers are vulnerable to explosives, PMG's and other snipers.  If I see a sniper bolt regularly blasting my guys, I move into a position slightly away from them, as a sniper, until I locate the guy.  If I can't get him from there, I'll move closer, jumping over buildings and avoiding everything else until I know the threat is eliminated.

I disagree that the sniper is easier to use, tbh.  Yeah, it's easier to hit, but it takes alot more skill to clear a group of enemies with a sniper than it does with the mortar.  Easier to hit, harder to kill.

There is no wind on the mortar bold either. the projectiles always drop at the same rate, once you have a feeling for the drop value, aiming it is simply a matter of looking at the target, the moving the mouse up a little.

Which is still harder than just holding shift, pointing your crosshairs at the target, and pressing fire for an instant one-hit-one-kill.

Point taken, but you're still vulnerable to gas grenades and pretty much anything with a blast radius - most of all other PMG's.

If you see a guy sitting behind a shield pumping PMG bolts over it, can't you just have someone go PMG and counter his fire by placing some well-aimed bolts behind his shield ?

I'm not looking for congrats, I used that last line as a bit just to underline my point - that even though sniper rifles do a better job at killing enemies and are easier to use, they don't get nearly the amount of flak PMG's do.

I get recognised for being a git. Does that count?

Instead, it has the "shoot people while they are behind the sheild, damaging multiple enemies at once" .  Those 2 things Balance out.

Seriously? This may just be me, but it takes me a maximum of two shots (where the third hits) to catch my target with that thing.  There is no wind on the mortar bold either. the projectiles always drop at the same rate, once you have a feeling for the drop value, aiming it is simply a matter of looking at the target, the moving the mouse up a little. Also, you don't have to adjust your position.  A Sniper is vulnerable, while he's in scope he is VERY unaware of whats going on around him - only aware of whats in his sights.  If he's spotted, he's to find another position a fair distance from where he was before that still allows him a very large firing zone and hope not to be spotted again.   With the PMG, you can put down a sheild in the middle of the street, still see your enemy and shoot over the top of it, out of harms way.

Perhaps you weren't keeping the enemy as supressed as you thought?  Or maybe you were. Zaphod doesn't get much congrats or thanks for decimating the enemy team with his sniper.  He gets recognised as a brilliant sniper because of how often he plays the game coupled with the fact he is bloody good.   Same for me, I don't usually get any thanks or post-game congratulations for a brilliant beacon/mounted gun emplacement.  I just get recognised for the amount I play and the fact I am good at it.  I've yet to see anyone who has been recognised as a "Good" mortar user.  Infact, I can think of only a couple of really good HWS users.

If it wasn't skilless, we wouldn't see total FS newbies joining, picking up that weapon and doing really good with it.  Yes, it takes skill to use the mortar very effectively.  However, in my time in FS, I can count on 1 hand the amount of people I've seen who are "good" with the mortar - People who really help the team and know EXACTLY when to use it (and other kit assets) to help the team. Thats a maximum of 5 people out of everyone.  Not much considering the amount of people who use it.

I fail to see how it is really that overpowered in comparison to the sniper rifles? Yet you have only ever wanted to increase the sniper's potential.

Exactly. To bring up an example from a chat I had with Ty on the issue:

Not so long ago I was holed up on that Imperial CP hill on Bestine 32. You know, the one the Rebels have to take after securing the little fort in the city itself. I was HWS, and our team was pinned by a single sniper in the city. He was down there somewhere, popping off shots at whoever got out of cover, and our team was pretty much pinned down. The second you got out of cover, you got shot. I set up a shield, but still couldn't tell where the shots were coming from (I know the beam is visible, but you have to be kinda off to the side to see it clearly, and trying to make it out through a shield makes it twice as hard). I think that in the end I and some others actually saw where in the expanse of buildings below us the sniper was, but still failed to take him down. He got on the forums afterwards and bragged - rightfully - about how much disruption he had caused in our team.

Let's say it was me in the sniper's situation, onll with a PMG:

I take up position somewhere in the city. I see the targets up on the hill, measure the distance with my pistol, and fire off a salvo to get a feel for how I have to aim to hit target. In doing so, I immediately give away my exact map position as the enemy sees the bolts travel from me to them. The bolts also give them a chance to evade and take cover - the PMG doesn't have the "instantly shoot people the second they get out from under the shield" ability of the disruptor. I can adjust my position, but then I have to -once more- find out how high to aim to hit the target I'm shooting at (let me remind you, for comparison, that there is no wind or bullet drop in FS - all a sniper has to do is put his crosshairs on you and fire). Bottom line is, provided I stick with 'sniping' with the PMG (that is, not bombarding but just trying to aim for players I can actually see), I may do some damage while being continuously pelted with fire, though I won't score nearly as many kills as I would with a sniper rifle. Heck, if I just bombard the CP area, I'll score far less kills than I would with a sniper rifle.

I return to the forums and receive not honours for single-handedly keeping the enemy team suppressed, but bitching for (quote) sitting back without helping my team, cowardly using a skilless noob weapon (unquote).

My point is, the PMG may be a lot of things, but skilless is the last thing it is. Even when you're bombarding a target you can't see, you have to keep checking the minimap for targets and friendlies. Compare the procedure in my scenario above with lying down somewhere comfortably, holding shift, putting the crosshairs on the enemy's head, and hitting fire.

EDIT: As a side note, FPS games have a lot of artillery weapons other than mortars - FS itself has the Mortar Freerunner, for one, which has an even longer range, and more blast power, than the PMG, and is easier to use, what with the fact that it keeps track of how long the shots travel for you. Yet I've never been referred to as cowardly when bombarding someone with the Mortar Freerunner, nor, for that matter, with any other artillery piece in any other FPS game. Funny, that.

If I was to point to the #1 unfair thing with the PMG, I'd say it's the shield. Mortar infantry can climb up to some elevated position like the tower on Bestine, place a shield, and fire shots in an arc over it without ever having to get out of cover. With this in mind, if I was to design the FS classes from the ground up, I'd probably have had the DEMP and PMG trade classes. This would give mortar infantry nearly infinite ammo from the generator, but make them far more vulnerable.

I could get into details here on what I agree and disagree with, but I'm fine with limiting the mortar squad to firing at people away from Control Points (shielded defensive positions, snipers, advancing infantry and so on.

Also Gwynzer means that in small battles that you shouldn't end the game by capping a CP by sneaking around the side of the map where a small number of people can't all guard.

we know what he means.
We just disagree that a small number of people cant guard a CP against a small number of people.
Unless all of em are going to leave the CP at once and go sit in firefights, leaving no radar.

Also Gwynzer means that in small battles that you shouldn't end the game by capping a CP by sneaking around the side of the map where a small number of people can't all guard.

Sorry, in this context I meant "Attacking/Capping from the rear". Yes, it's a perfectly valid tactic, I call it flanking in larger games. .....  If the last remaining CP gets "flanked" in a small game, I get really pissed.  Again, most the time there are some decent firefights going on, while one team is managing to advance, an ll of a sudden the game ends.  Pisses me off, I've shouted at one or two BI people for doing it before.

If you're down to the last CP and one team is managing to advance..isn't that the winning team? And isn't capping the last cp the whole point? Shouldn't the 'losing' team by defending its last cp, since at the end of the day no matter how few people are on, it is their only flag they have to engage at.

I fail to see the need to engage in drawn out firefights. Agreeing to meet in the middle of a map with both teams holding the same number of flags in order to prevent any ticket bleed is..pointless. In that case there is no objective to the map and you might as well go play Operation Wolf or something if all you want to do is shoot some stuff.

If it's small teams and people don't want to end the round by capping all flags and want to engage in some firefights, then why not encourage some squad play training? Take it in turns to lose a flag, that way each team gets a chance to practice attacking and defending a flag, while trying to achieve some balance in the bleed. Eg, on 16p Espa Imps attack Jabba's. Once/if they cap it, they return back to city ruins and defend that, giving rebels time to recap Jabbas safely then take their turn to try an attack.

That keeps everyone happy and for some of the new guys, it will help them learn how the FS team play works while preventing them getting pissed with needless meet in the middle firefights.

Sorry, in this context I meant "Attacking/Capping from the rear". Yes, it's a perfectly valid tactic, I call it flanking in larger games. .....  If the last remaining CP gets "flanked" in a small game, I get really pissed.  Again, most the time there are some decent firefights going on, while one team is managing to advance, an ll of a sudden the game ends.  Pisses me off, I've shouted at one or two BI people for doing it before.

Yes it is annoying! see the next thing for why:

Believe it or not, I'm agreeing with you about the formation of this PMG arty squad. I just get fun from the game in a different way to you I guess.

It annoys you when a CP is taken from under your nose because you love getting stuck in with your blasters, (your playstyle- as Twigs noted) and a sneaky player robs you of that. Thats fine! Its ok to get annoyed.
Just recognise that long range players with PMGs also rob you of your short range blaster fights. Thats why they annoy you- more than the skill involved.
Also recognise that there are ways to guard against flanking even in small games- they can't do it undetected if theres a radar on the point.

Now, If you're not going to advance a small game, it will deteriorate into sniping or shelling very fast, unless the other team don't like to do that.
(i'd also rather not go sniper or PMG in a small game for the same reason, like encourages like and then the game goes nowhere again.)

Which is why I'd reccommend Safe not try his shelling squad. If it sucks, great, you've just occupied half the team in a CG doing something ineffective.
But if its AWESOME! and works great, it will encourage more shelling.

PS- l love you all, especially Gwyn. Even when I disagree with your point of view.

Need 12 people to test this out though