• Alreech
  • Alreech
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  • Registered: 2007-12-07
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Topic: Talooran - make it more tactical ?

Sad but true, moving the Cap Ships on Talooran is at the moment (FS 1.5) tactically a stupid idea.  roll
If you move them, you move them away from your fighter cover.

It's especially stupid if the enemy doesn't move and you decide to attack the enemy fleet at their starting position.
In that case you're not only moving away from your fighter cover, you're moving to the enemy bombers spawn point.

To fix that problem and to make Talooran more tactical I suggest following:

1.) Add a "Fighters Reinforcements"  Control Point between the two fleets.
Only Capital Ships should be able to capture that point

If the Point is captured, above or below a Figtherspawn is created, and fighters of the controlling side are spawning.
For the Imps: TIE Defenders
For the Rebels: A-Wings

Optional or additional:
2.) Add a "Bombers Reinforcements"  Control Point in front of the enemy's fleet.
Only Capital Ships should be able to capture that point, and only the opposite side should be able to capture it.
(Rebel Fleet: Imperial Bombers Reinforcements, Imperial Fleet: Rebel Bombers Reinforcements )

If the Point is captured, above or below a Figtherspawn is created, and Bombers of the controlling side are spawning.
For the Imps: TIE Bombers
For the Rebels: Y-Wings or B-Wings

3.) Add a "Jumppoint"  Control Point behind/below/above the enemy's fleet ( like in Escape from Hoth ).
If your Cap Ships reaches that point, it jumps out and is save

This should give you a reason to move your fleet to toward the middle of the map and to the enemy, and gives you a chance to flee if the attack goes wrong.

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  • Gwynzer
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Re: Talooran - make it more tactical ?

Don't know about jumppoints, but having captureable fighter spawns strikes me as a pretty good idea.

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  • Twigs
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Re: Talooran - make it more tactical ?

I'd do things differently to be honest. By the way, Taloraan has been in teh mod since release 1, so why all of a sudden its tactically stupid in 1.5 kind of strikes me as a bit late to bring it up.

Spawn points in space are hard to find. Very hard to find. Even harder to stick around in the same spot really still without someone shooting you. That means you need something big and heavy like, say a cap ship. Well, if a cap ship is heading to a cp to cap it to bring in reinforcements (or at least the suggested staging area) then the enemy is going to figure the same thing, and move their cap ships. So now you get a cap ship battle...which is kind of the point of Taloraan.

So, to then try and add to that by adding a bombers reinforcement point right in front of the enemy staging area means you are talking suicide to even try and capture that one.

The jump point thing in EfH is erm...well its a special coding thing. That means we'd have to rewrite more for Taloraan. Plus it's a bit of a weird one to describe, as I understand it though it works because of the way the map is laid out. To make that work in a similar way for taloraan, while maintaining some way to ensure it doesnt cause a mass server crash would take some work. You'd essentially have to have double the code for it to work for two teams, if you just coded all the ships in to the same script source, then all ships would jump out when in the vicinity of any kind of beacon. So then we'd also have to clone another space beacon etc etc etc.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate feedback and thanks for you thoughts, but I'm not of the opinion that it would solve it while maintaining the original idea behind the map.

My personal opinion is that Taloraan is a bit skewed due to the ship loadouts. All rebel fighters have missiles of some description, while the A's even have homing missiles. As I recall, they were a later edition and originally they had dumb missiles too. But yes, rebels can afford to sit back and launch wave after wave of fighters loaded with missiles, while Imps can only send some slow and feeble tie bombers to effect some damage.

My ideas to solve this:
Remove torps from all rebel craft except the B-Wing

OR

Increase Tie Bomber missile capacity (more chance to cause damage before having to rearm and compensate for the increase cpaacity of all rebel fighters) and arm A-Wings with dumb missiles once more.

OR

Equip imps with an extra bulk freighter to increase repair ability.


Or you could possibly consider adding a massive bubble of death that kills anyone attacking ships in the staging area, but that takes the fun away, especially if you don't have a lot of players at the time.

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  • Alreech
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Re: Talooran - make it more tactical ?

Twigs wrote:

Spawn points in space are hard to find. Very hard to find. Even harder to stick around in the same spot really still without someone shooting you. That means you need something big and heavy like, say a cap ship. Well, if a cap ship is heading to a cp to cap it to bring in reinforcements (or at least the suggested staging area) then the enemy is going to figure the same thing, and move their cap ships. So now you get a cap ship battle...which is kind of the point of Taloraan.

Yepp. That's the idea, and the fighter spawn should enforce it ( or reward such a gameplay ).

Twigs wrote:

So, to then try and add to that by adding a bombers reinforcement point right in front of the enemy staging area means you are talking suicide to even try and capture that one.

Well, because of this it's optional.

The CP in the middle should enough, but even when the Bomber CP is difficult to capture... that's a feature, not a bug wink
Having Bombers near the Enemy's starting Area is a huge advantage, so it should be difficult.
I would even put this CP out of the direct line, and a little bit above or beyond, so that you have to fly a longer way to reach it.

Twigs wrote:

The jump point thing in EfH is erm...well its a special coding thing. That means we'd have to rewrite more for Taloraan.

Well, I expected that, that's the reason it's only the 3rd suggestion.  cool
It would be nice to have, but nothing really important and definitely not worth the work.

Twigs wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate feedback and thanks for you thoughts, but I'm not of the opinion that it would solve it while maintaining the original idea behind the map.

No problem, but I think the middle CP would maintain the original idea by giving a reason to move the ships.

Twigs wrote:

My personal opinion is that Taloraan is a bit skewed due to the ship loadouts. All rebel fighters have missiles of some description, while the A's even have homing missiles. As I recall, they were a later edition and originally they had dumb missiles too. But yes, rebels can afford to sit back and launch wave after wave of fighters loaded with missiles, while Imps can only send some slow and feeble tie bombers to effect some damage.


I totally agree with that.

Twigs wrote:

My ideas to solve this:
Remove torps from all rebel craft except the B-Wing

OR

Increase Tie Bomber missile capacity and arm A-Wings with dumb missiles once more.

OR

Equip imps with an extra bulk freighter to increase repair ability.


Or you could possibly consider adding a massive bubble of death that kills anyone attacking ships in the staging area, but that takes the fun away, especially if you don't have a lot of players at the time.

Well, the Bubble of Death is a no-go, because it gives you a good reason to not move the ships. If they are save in the bubble, so why move them ?

I also don't like the idea to remove the Torps from the X-Wings or the Missiles from the A-Wings.
It's Star Wars canon. sad

And giving the imps a additional Freighter may change the balance ( can two freighters repair each other ? ) of the capital ship combat.

If you want to change the fighters on the map, would this be a good idea ?
-> Imps get an extra TIE Bomber ( more ammo is useless, because you don't live long enough to deliver it wink )
-> TIE Interceptors are replaced with TIE Defenders ( missiles against A-Wings, Ion Cannons against X and B Wings and capital ships)
-> TIE Fighters are replaced with TIE Interceptors ( better dogfighters, but still weak )

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5 Reply by Slyfox_Elite (edited by Slyfox_Elite 2011-08-02 17:08:10)

  • From: Canada
  • Registered: 2009-04-03
  • Posts: 642

Re: Talooran - make it more tactical ?

I think Taloraan shouldn't have any gameplay changes, but some changes to the fighters.

Even though having the torps for the Rebel fighters is canon, we must first acknowledge that this is a game. Balance comes before anything else. I am in favor of taking all missiles from the Rebel fighters except for the B-Wing.

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  • Twigs
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Re: Talooran - make it more tactical ?

I said nothing of bugs. I said difficult. Trust me, we've experimented with putting cappable areas in space, it's possible but they can be difficult to track and stay in when under fire. Thats why a bomber spawn, no matter what height you put it, right in front of the enemy area will get very rare use. You can just park on the flag and wait for the kills.

Why is removing armament going against star wars lore? Not every mission would have had a full load out, even in our own militaries you don't send a jet off with every possible weapon it can carry on board. Rebels were a faction that would have had things in short supply. Even the loading screen states they are low on critical supplies.

And I would be completely against adding Tie Defenders to this map. Bad enough having one ship with homing missiles, plus of course, again going against lore. These were experimental craft that saw limited use in combat. It also still wouldn't solve the balance issue, which is caused by one faction having a tremendous advantage in the amount of ordnance carried.

Best way to balance it...give both sides fighters a more level field in the way they can be utilised tactically. In other words, remove the Rebels ability to be able to perform as strike bombers and fighters with every craft.

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7 Reply by evgenidb (edited by evgenidb 2011-08-02 18:25:50)

  • Registered: 2011-07-31
  • Posts: 28

Re: Talooran - make it more tactical ?

Won't this solve the problem with for the Imps: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Missile_Boat?

Also, I have an idea that might work (but of course it will require some additional work from your side - probably some coding and modeling (and texturing)). But only if you want to ensure a Cap vs Cap battle.