Topic: Damage against Tanks ? Class redesign ?

Yesterday i try the Missile launcher of the Heavy Weapons Specialist Class and the Supports Class Detpack against a Tank:

Missile launcher: 7 Hits to kill a Tank, 3 Hits against a Speeder, 1 Hit against a Speederbike.
Detpack: 4 Packs to kill a tank.

Even a Full Squad of Heavys with Missiles won't kill a Tank if every Squad member hits, and i did not notice a sweet spot on the tank (a point there the missile does more damage).
And with only their Pistols they are helpless against Inf

Two Supporters can kill a tank quickly, and with with   their Mines and Blasters they can stand good against Inf.

IMHO this is Bad, the same problem like the SpecOp in BF2 Vanilla:
The support is better equipped to take out enemy vehicles than the Heavy with missile Launcher.
He is better equipped to take out Inf than the Assault, because his weapon has Burst mode and Zoom and he has mines. He is even not limited by ammunition, because they can resupply him self.

sad I am not feeling comfortable by suggest a redesign of the classes (because you have a done a lot of testing and there is surely a reason behind your class layout), but:

Heavy Weapons Specialist class:
Enlarge the ammount of damage for the Heavys Misslelauchner against tanks
Change the Portable Shield Generator against the Proximity Mine
Remove the Electrostatic Charge Detonator

Reasons:
The Shield Generator is cool, but it also marks your position clearly for each vehicle.
The Promixity Mines will help this class to defend a stronghold against Infantery.
Both changes will make this class a better defender.


Support Class:
Change the Detpackspacks against the Homing Beacon of the assault.
Change the Proximity Mines against the Portable Shield Generator
Give him the Electrostatic Charge Detonator

Reasons:
With the Shield Generator and the Generator this class can build save resupply places. Behind the front, or at the front. With the Homing Beacons he secure this places against a enemy attack.
Without DetPacks and Promixity Mines he can't spam them.
With the Electrostatic Charge Detonator he has still a weapon against enemy tanks.

Assault Class:
Give the Assault Rifle a Burst Mod.
Change the Homing Beacon against the Detpackspacks of the Support.

Reasons:
With Homing Beacon, inaccurate Weapon in Full Auto and no Chance against vehicle this class is not suited for an daring assault.
This class is more suited to camp behind the Homing beacon, waiting for the enemy.
Burst Mode will make the weapon more accurate during moving, removing the Beacon works against camping and the DetPack gives him a small change to damage a vehicle with a brave attack.

CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic’s eyes to improve his vision
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Re: Damage against Tanks ? Class redesign ?

My two cents:

Even a Full Squad of Heavys with Missiles won't kill a Tank if every Squad member hits, and i did not notice a sweet spot on the tank (a point there the missile does more damage).
And with only their Pistols they are helpless against Inf

We've tested infantry squad vs. tank action thoroughly. With a mixed squad, you'll take the tank down in no time. A squad with three HWS guys with rocket launchers will bring the tank dangerously close to destruction with only two salvos. Set up shields, fire rockets, reload behind shield, emerge and fire again. It's a team effort, and tanks are supposed to be hard to kill. Heck, even the AT-ST - a scout vehicle - has always been tricky to kill, requiring many rocket hits to bring down. Why should tanks be any less so?

Two Supporters can kill a tank quickly, and with with   their Mines and Blasters they can stand good against Inf.

A tank is weak against infantry very close to it, yes. Which is why you as a tanker are supposed to stay away from infantry. If they get up close to you, you can't aim for them with your gun and they can place mines and DetPacks to take you out.

sad I am not feeling comfortable by suggest a redesign of the classes (because you have a done a lot of testing and there is surely a reason behind your class layout)

Well, the best reason why rebalancing the weapons solely for tank combat is not feasible is that this would also wreck their balance on every other map. If you increase the rocket launcher so people can rambo against tanks again, then suddenly you can also use the rocket launcher as a powerful antipersonell weapon. And that's just one example.

The Shield Generator is cool, but it also marks your position clearly for each vehicle.

Then don't deploy it until you want to be seen. That simple.

Both changes will make this class a better defender.

Removing the HWS class' shield will make it better at defending? I beg to differ.

With the Shield Generator and the Generator this class can build save resupply places.

But without it, he needs the HWS class to do so. =Teamwork, which is good. A squad needs to consist of more than one class, to meet every challenge it might run into.

As for the Trooper class, he does what he's supposed to do very well: He clears out enemy infantry at close range/snipes infantry at long range, and spots for artillery.

"One of the bitches actually gave birth while she was attacking, and her puppies joined in on the carnage."
--the awesomeness that is Boatmurdered.

3 (edited by Bandu 2008-05-21 13:16:50)

Re: Damage against Tanks ? Class redesign ?

The tanks have pretty much the perfect amount of health and the rockets, the perfect amount of damage, as far as I can tell...especially now that you can have 40+ people playing. Tanks are to be feared, however a decent squad or 2 can deal with them in the matter of seconds, and of course if you have armour support of your own then all the better. Actually the one word that sums up FS , imo, more than any other is "Support".

(and no, I am not a tank whore. I am very much an infantry purest)


We talked and tested a hell of alot about every aspect of the classes when we were designing them. Preach, Woody and myself spent many a full moon, on IRC, jibbering on about each and every weapon configuration, gadget, purpose, etc etc you could imagine, back then tongue

My advice would be to give it more time. Try and jump on a squad full of devs and/or testers on a weekend game and Im sure you'll see just how well the classes can work together to overcome whatever challenge is infront of them.  If you still feel the same in a few weeks then post again. Actually post again in a month anyway,  I'd be interested in seeing how some of your views may have changed.

"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavours to live at the expense of everybody else."
Frédéric Bastiat

Re: Damage against Tanks ? Class redesign ?

Hehe, funny thing is that during testing, when we pitted a 6-man squad against tanks on Ryloth, my verdict was that infantry was too strong against armour.

"One of the bitches actually gave birth while she was attacking, and her puppies joined in on the carnage."
--the awesomeness that is Boatmurdered.

Re: Damage against Tanks ? Class redesign ?

Safe-Keeper wrote:

Hehe, funny thing is that during testing, when we pitted a 6-man squad against tanks on Ryloth, my verdict was that infantry was too strong against armour.

Ryloth may be a different thing, this map looks like a tankers nightmare, canyons, bridges, high Buildings...

I have played yesterday a round with a buddy on Rhen Var Ice Plains...
Try to defend the Harbor with a six man squad (at least 2 Heavys with Missiles, me and my buddy, the others not in our teamspeak)...
No chance against a single tank. The tank did not get close, he simply pwns us with his missiles from the distance.
Same at the Outposts.
Building up the Shields didn't help either, because he simply fires against the ground / walls near the shields, so the splash damage kills us.
I just think it was a fault try to defend the harbor / outpost , leaving it to the rebs would be better.

After that i checkt the damage against tanks on a local server...

The Supporter is an other thing.
Since i play this mod i think he is IMBA.
(Claymores and Ammunition box ? Burst mode for the "assault rifle" but not for the assault ?)

Bandu wrote:

My advice would be to give it more time. Try and jump on a squad full of devs and/or testers on a weekend game and Im sure you'll see just how well the classes can work together to overcome whatever challenge is infront of them.  If you still feel the same in a few weeks then post again. Actually post again in a month anyway,  I'd be interested in seeing how some of your views may have changed.

What's my plan, just want to hear other options about it wink

CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic’s eyes to improve his vision
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Re: Damage against Tanks ? Class redesign ?

The problem there is not Infantry vs. Tanks. The problem is that the T1-B's Anti-air missiles are absurdly powerful against infantry because of the splash damage. I think putting the same "Constant rise w/o target lock" system that they have for SAM missiles in vanilla might be a good idea, since the Imperials don't really have an effective equivalent weapon (other than the AT-ST's conc grenades, but those only work close in). Otherwise, pitting an Imperial infantry squad against a T1-B, in any scenario but a surprise, instantly lethal attack, will be fatal for the squad. Not to mention that if there's TWO T1-B's attacking.

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Re: Damage against Tanks ? Class redesign ?

We are fixing the splash damage already and it will be in the hotfix soon TM smile

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