43 (edited by Safe-Keeper 2008-05-27 12:23:36)

Re: Forcing Squads

I see it expressed more through actions.  People still try to attack and defend the points even though they can't take them.

That's not disliking the system - that's being ignorant of it. Once they know the system works that way, they play the map as it's meant to be played.

Also, how is a one way push keeping with lore accuracy?

Absolutely. On Endor, you never saw the Rebs get pushed back to the speeder wreck or their shuttle - they secured those locations in order and then fought for the bunker. As for why it's that way on Bestine, you'll have to ask Ty.

"One of the bitches actually gave birth while she was attacking, and her puppies joined in on the carnage."
--the awesomeness that is Boatmurdered.

44 (edited by TY2D2 2008-05-27 13:02:51)

Re: Forcing Squads

Because that's how I want it to work and that's how it's going to be, I had this gamemode in mind since day 1.

1. Map is too big down there for 64 people to be both attacking AND defending.
2. Speeder Bikes anyone?
3. The 'Lore' of this map is that the Imperials have the Gallofrees trapped by the Turbo Lasers, they have no need to hold the lower city as long as they have the Turbo Lasers they are fine. Only the top of the cliffs is capable by Imperials, because that's all they need to hold. I made the capture time in Bestine especially LONGER because I wanted to give Imperials time to fall back. If you hang around trying to hold them off till the capture, that's a risk you take.



Next time play with that in mind and you may have a more enjoyable game.

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"Munchkin: One who, on being told that this is a game about politics and intrigue in 17th century Italy, asks to play a ninja."
Andrew Rilstone

Re: Forcing Squads

The pushmap system will not change (though we will continually work to improve it).  There are very specific and important reasons why it has become so prevalent in our work.

1) It focuses the combat.  Part of building FS was the goal to get the epic battleground feel.  We wanted  you to be embroiled in a huge conflict of armies, not single one-or-two man skirmishes.  We geared our entire gamebalance to make use of lots of people all fighting together, not for rambos to run about killing one another and backcapping flags.  Creating an epic battlefield environment is not exactly easy when you only have an average of 16 players a side.  As such, the "push map" system was developed so that the teams would inevitably would be forced to clash with one another head-on.  at no time will any team have to defend more than two or three flags.  This is compared to vanilla and various other mods where you end up with 6-7 flags to defend and you have to spread out everyone so that there is always 2 or 3 at any flag to stop it being taken.  This brings us on to point 2...

2) We wanted to eliminate the need to have people sitting at the rear flags doing sod-all.  In many vanilla games you'd enevitably have to have someone defend your rear flags from capture or else ninja players would just capture your back lines.  While in reality that would make sense, it has to be realised that in reality a) you have a massive amount more people to do such menial things and b) this is a game.  We play games to have fun and get away from reality.  No one wants to sit at a rear flag and guard it whilst everyone else on his team is off having fun.  It's tedious, boring, and frankly not why we play these games.  If we wanted to sit in tedious boredum we could just turn our computers off and look at a blank screen.

3) One-way pushes allow us to create maps where there are clear defenders and clear attackers.  Some of our maps, as you've noticed, are one-way.  That means that once a flag is taken the former defenders cannot retake that flag.  This allows us to create a different style of gameplay to the straight tug-o-war push-map that is standard.  The key to these maps is time.  The attacking team, in every case, only has so much time in which to capture enough of the enemy flags to stop the bleeding.  On Endor they have to capture every flag even in order to win.  This mixes up the game and provides different objectives for each map, rather than creating the same map a dozen times with just different scenery.  To that end look for arrows on the maps.  Arrows will indicate if a flag is one-way or not.

4) Speederbikes anyone?  (thankyou Ty)

and finally...

5) All of us were sick with straight conquest.  The constant flag-hopping, spend 80% of the time moving from flag to flag rather than fighting, ninja encouraging, battlefield-killing, skirmish creating tedium that was BF2 conquest is no more.  Instead the maps now guide and assist in creating the epic atmosphere of the mod.  Here you become part of a larger force.  Quite naturally you'll find you're moving with others on your team to accomplish common goals.  This mod works very hard to create a natural teamwork environment so that you aren't forced to yourself. 

Occasionally you'll find someone who's turned off by the fact that they alone can't be the super one-man army that wins the game, but take into account that for every one-man-army that kicked bottom in vanilla or other games there are 15 more people on the team previously that didn't do it.  This is, after all, a multiplayer game.  As such, we've attempted to make sure that a lot the ability to accomplish things rests on how well your team performs, not how well one or two people can out-twitch or ninja flag-hop the enemy.  We've done our best to create and shape the world so that the team naturally comes together and functions without the enormous backend of player organization (which is near impossible on pickup games); push maps are just one aspect of this goal.

Fear the Woodzilla

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Re: Forcing Squads

Well said sir.

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/3958/kamphersig4si.jpg

Re: Forcing Squads

And I agree about the ninja hopping and quite enjoy the regular push maps.  It gives a clear battlefront (like Frontlines).   Espa should also be a tug of war push map aswell IMO.  I just disagree with the making it a one sided push.   It ends up with sitting around doing nothing shooting at dirt spots waiting for the enemy to come.    After they arive you kill them then wait for them to group up and come again, its boring.

Fighting over 1 point takes out a large amount of the stratagy, how many squads should push and how many should cover the base.   Thats key in all military activitys and when that is removed, it lessens the game and removes some of the emmersion.

Endor I can see as being a one way as the rebels had a near infinite supply of troops (ewoks) to do a continual push.   But in maps where the forces are equal or slanted in the side of the defender... doesn't make since for a one way push.

And if Speeder bikes are a big problem... Fix them to not be aircraft and just ground craft as seen in the movies.  I don't recall the speeder chase in EP6 taking place in the treetops or stormtroopers flying over fallen trees instead of crashing into them...

Re: Forcing Squads

I prefer the push maps, it pisses me off to play Mos Entha and have flags back capped by some lone wolf who doesnt want to fight and just earn points by running round the back. The game is supposed to be about shooting stormies (or rebels if your so inclined) and as Woody said, leaving two or three people at every flag to defend takes that away from them.

If you joined a game to just back cap flags on a server with ten people playing, go home and let me have some fun. If you want to get involved in some conflict and have a laugh then great, lets go. But please, stop bitching about a game I like just because it doesnt tick every single box for you. No game is perfect, so instead of complaining, thank the guys for putting their energy and time in to this or go play Battlefront if you want a Star Wars FPS and let us enjoy this!

/rant

Bite my shiny metal Tie Fighter!
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Re: Forcing Squads

Twigs wrote:

I prefer the push maps, it pisses me off to play Mos Entha and have flags back capped by some lone wolf who doesnt want to fight and just earn points by running round the back. The game is supposed to be about shooting stormies (or rebels if your so inclined) and as Woody said, leaving two or three people at every flag to defend takes that away from them.

If you joined a game to just back cap flags on a server with ten people playing, go home and let me have some fun. If you want to get involved in some conflict and have a laugh then great, lets go.

Agreed, I rather dislike playing and having a good ebb and flow going between two bases and then the back base gets capped....  Thats why I suggested making it a push map (NOT a one way push, a real push map).

But please, stop bitching about a game I like just because it doesnt tick every single box for you.

No.
I do beleave this section has this in its discription "Add your likes, [bold]dislikes, and suggestions [/bold]for the mod here."
It does not say "Put only positive things here or be yelled at."  I am stating my dislikes and likes of the game and making my suggestions to improve it.   If the team is unable to take people saying their mod is not the second comming, the discription of general should probly be changed....